On January 24th, 2002 I got to do a short interview with Lloyd Green.  Presented here is the outcome of that interview. I hope you enjoy it. I know I enjoyed conducting it.  I wish I could have talked a lot longer.  Mr. Green is a very gracious person and a real pleasure to talk with.


How did you become associated with Chart Records?

In April, l964 I was hired as Roy Drusky’s Executive Assistant at SESAC, in the Capitol Records Building on Music Row. Directly across from our offices was Chart Records. My first day on the job I met Slim Williamson who hired me to play steel guitar on a session for his young label being recorded that week. Buddy Killen, who co-owned Tree Music Publishing with Jack Stapp, was leader and producer of that session. With his other activities he didn’t have much time for these activities, primarily doing them as a favor to Slim. I soon suggested he could save some money by just making me leader on the sessions. Buddy was glad to relinquish those responsibilities and consequently I inherited the account.

What responsibilities did the leader of the sessions have?

On the smaller record labels such as Chart I would discuss with Slim whom he wanted me to hire for each session, then book the musicians. Slim would book the studio. I would first meet with him to discuss the songs we were to record, then have a meeting with the artist to arrange each song; content, fills, tempo, etc. Finally, I wrote chord charts for each musician. At the studio I was in charge of the way the session was recorded, although technically, Slim was the executive producer and sat in the control room with the recording engineer. When he had a suggestion I implemented it but usually he left it up to me. Thus I was arranger, conductor, steel player, leader and janitor.

You mentioned that you and Slim picked the songs?

No, not Slim and I. Slim picked the songs. He had the vision of which tunes he wanted to record and he owned the company. I was merely the hired musician leader. Most of the songs we cut, particularly with lesser-known artists, were from his publishing company, either Yonah Music (BMI) or Peach Music (SESAC). My impressions are that Slim’s first priority was to build a valuable publishing catalog. In this he was splendidly successful. I think the record company, Chart, was secondary and served as the vehicle and conduit to where the real money was, publishing. This was especially true for a small record label that couldn’t be very competitive with the majors.

Yes, there were a lot of songs published through that company!

Indeed there were!

I noticed when I was going through the listing of 45’s that a lot of songs kept recurring under different artists. Why was that?

It was to get that song more airplay. One would presume most of the material we recorded was either Yonah or Peach published. Unless a song had been a major hit with a recognizable title, there would have been no pecuniary reason for Slim to record it other than as an album cut. Remember, he was building a valuable publishing catalog. Every time one of his songs was played on radio he was paid by either B.M.I. or S.E.S.A.C. or A.S.C.A.P. An equal amount was paid to the writer. Slim had a lot of writers who wrote a lot of songs. He was an astute businessman.

What was the standard royalty paid to an artist; a writer; and the publisher?

The standard artists’ contract with a record label in l960’s was between 5% and 7% of wholesale of records sold. Due to creative bookkeeping few artists ever received monies from a record label, unless they had huge sales. The artist made his/her money from personal show dates and peripheral sales of songbooks, T-shirts, etc. Many companies have been sued over this compelling and litigious issue by the singer.

The publisher was paid legitimately by the record companies for all records sold; Those were/are called mechanicals, the fee being about 3 or 4 cents per song. Today that amount has no doubt increased. The publisher, in turn, was supposed to pay the writer one half of those received royalties. This didn’t always happen.

B.M.I., ASCAP and SESAC paid the publisher and writer separately for airplay only. Their rates were not uniform so I can’t give you certain and factual statistics. My B.M.I. remuneration as writer for airplay was 2 cents per time the song was played or logged at a radio station. T.V. of course would have a different pay scale and rate, far more than radio.

You said that you were arranger, producer, and session leader with Chart. Did you have any other responsibilities?

Well, that basically encapsulates my responsibilities. Primarily, Slim kept me informed of the status of the record label. Obviously I held a pivotal position, that of session leader. But perhaps I should qualify the "producer" nomenclature. In a technical and legitimate sense he was the producer. Rather than parse the word I would simply agree.

Well, the reason I said producer is on a few of the records you are credited as the producer.

Yes, I was listed as producer on Lynn Anderson’s first album, "Ride, Ride, Ride". (NOTE: Lloyd was also listed as co-producer on "Promises, Promises"). After that time it was a matter of protocol for him to have his name listed as producer. Still, I was the one who met with the artists and worked up the musical arrangements. He relied on my judgment, which I would have done were the roles reversed. Slim wasn’t a musician so….once again, this wasn’t uncommon. At Columbia Records, right next door, there was a duo that produced most of the C.B.S. Records, Frank Jones and Don Law. I was on many, many sessions with them and Grady Martin (guitarist) was leader on those sessions. His role was the same as mine at Chart. They sat in the control room and, no doubt, along with the artist chose the songs to be recorded. But they always yielded to Grady’s judgment and I don’t recall them ever overruling the way Grady felt the tune should be cut. So, it isn’t derogatory to state that the session leader was often, also the putative producer. Now, on other sessions it could be different. Chet Atkins was the actual producer of his R.C.A. sessions as was Jerry Kennedy at Mercury, Owen Bradley at Decca (later M.C.A.) and Kelso Herston at United Artists and Capitol. But even then the musicians were given much freedom and latitude in creating the records. Essentially, that’s what the Nashville Sound was. Does that fully answer your question?

Oh, yes.

You asked if I held other functions with the label. Basically that was it. Slim and I had a very good relationship. Obviously it was an important account for me as was Little Darlin’ records. They were the first labels I was leader on that held major artists: Lynn Anderson on Chart and Johnny Paycheck on Little Darlin’. Sometime later Slim offered me the position of handling the entire Chart roster. He wanted to devote more time to his other investments, including a number of radio stations. We discussed the money aspects, but since I had a full-time career recording and working at SESAC I declined. That may have been about the time Joe Gibson came to work for Chart as a producer. Had I wanted to enhance my reputation in that arena this would have been an ideal situation, but I said no, as I did to other producing opportunities. I loved playing steel guitar on records far more and never regretted the decision.

I guess you had more fun playing.

Yes, and as I said, I refused some good producing offers.

Well, I can understand that.

I didn’t mind being leader and the concomitant responsibilities, I just didn’t want the more personal nexus of baby-sitting the artists. That would have been part of the package. At Chart I had only to get with the singer, go over the songs and come up with the arrangements. Slim had to do a lot of the baby-sitting!

What were your duties at SESAC and when did you decide to leave that position?

My SESAC duties consisted of being liaison between SESAC publishers and talking with those who wanted to join; in fact, being a buffer for Roy Drusky, Nashville head, so he could deal with other SESAC matters. Additionally, I wrote a weekly insider newsletter called, "off the cuff", containing the latest music row news and scuttlebutt. This enabled all the field representatives and New York headquarter executives to keep up-to-date and abreast of the Nashville music activity. There was much more to my duties, but this gives you a glimpse of what the new "kid on the block" in Nashville, SESAC, was up to in the l960’s. They had been, historically, a licensing agency for gospel music and were now trying to become established in country music.

After 31/2 years I decided to leave because my recording career had mushroomed into such a lucrative and demanding occupation I couldn’t do justice to both careers. Although SESAC offered to double my salary to stay, it was time to go. So in l968 I wrote my resignation and left the last salaried job I was to ever hold.

How much input did the artists have in selecting the songs?

I don’t know. That was out of my domain. Slim handled all of the songs so that would have been between him and the artist. I do know that he had the final decision on everything. He was a nice guy, with a calm demeanor and easy to get along with, yet he was an astute businessman. He always kept control of everything he dealt with. You could have a meeting with Slim and think you had won some points then realize, "Wait a minute, he aced me again!" He always maintained the leverage in all his business dealings and, to me that was a remarkable and difficult thing to do with a smaller label. Of course, that’s one of the reasons he made lots of money.

The last time we talked you said you had the impression Slim was a bit disenchanted with Nashville. I remember something he once told me. He said of all his years in Nashville he was never invited to dinner by a major studio head. He seemed to resent that, feeling as if they were viewing him as some lucky "hick" from Georgia. He evidently never felt fully accepted by those companies even though he was quite successful and totally legitimate. There was probably a degree of reverse snobbery going on here. The guys from RCA, Capitol and Columbia perhaps didn’t feel he was that important. But he was.

I guess they were just looking at the size of the label and he was from, basically, the backwoods of Georgia.

I think that was the attitude. But he was certainly a shrewd businessman. I wasn’t privy to the dealings with the RCA folks when they were trying to get Lynn Anderson, but there were many meetings. And I’ll bet when they were finished they knew they had dealt with one unyielding guy. He got the deal he wanted. He didn’t give them Lynn Anderson and he got RCA to distribute his entire label. That was a major accomplishment! I know of no other label that could have pulled that off with only the leverage of a single artist. You know we had about 24 or 25 artists on Chart when he offered me the roster. That was another reason I didn’t want to do it because with so many artists, I thought, "My gracious, there aren’t enough hours in the day for me to do this and play on records too!"

Do you know of any artists that may have slipped through Slim’s hands that later turned out to be major artists or at least significant artists?

With the possible exception of Lynn Anderson and Billy "Crash" Craddock, no, however, interestingly Slim and I had a verbal deal that if I played on or heard a vocal record that looked as if it had the potential to be a big hit, we would go in the studio and cut a quick instrumental of the tune and hopefully sell a great many records, riding off the coat tails of the vocal hit. Since I received tremendous airplay this seemed an eminently logical and clever thing to do. Well, I found the song (the night it was recorded), took it to Slim the next morning, played it for him and told him I thought it would be a country and pop hit. Unfortunately, Joe Talbot (music publisher) and Ted Harris (songwriter, "Crystal Chandeliers", "Paper Mansions", etc) were there and told both Slim and me they didn’t think it would even be a country hit, much less a successful pop song. So Slim, for one of the few times in our relationship, and swayed by their opinions, said no. The song was "Harper Valley, P.T.A." by Jeannie C. Riley, and ultimately sold 7 million records worldwide, becoming a #l pop and #l country hit simultaneously! A year or two later we cut it for my "Cool Steel Man" album, having missed a grand opportunity.

Besides Lynn Anderson, who do you think was the next major artist on the label?

Well, there were several, and for a variety of reasons. Junior Samples was popular because he was on "Hee-Haw". He was a comedian not a singer, but I’d bet Slim sold a significant number of records because of the "Hee-Haw" connection. Then there was Jim Nesbitt who had 4 or 5 records, oddities of a sort, once a year hits. "Lookin’ For More In ’64" was the first, "Still Alive in ‘65", a hit, although probably a lesser one, and something in ’66.

"Heck Of A Fix in ’66".

Were there others after that?

Well there was "Clean the Slate in ’68" and "Havin’ Fun in ’71".

Oh, so he did the novelties till then. I don’t know for certain but I imagine "Lookin’ For More In ‘64" was the biggest of all of those. They were novelty songs back then but I guess became less novel with each record. But Jim Nesbitt gave the label credibility. We had Billy "Crash" Craddock on the label for a while, also, and Anthony Armstrong Jones, the front man who opened Conway Twitty’s shows. He was a real good artist.

He put out several albums on the label: Probably more than most except for Lynn Anderson.

Is that right? I didn’t know that.

Yeah, he put out 4 albums on the label. (NOTE: 2 or 3 were the most any other artist had besides Lynn Anderson.

You could contrast that with my status on Chart records as instrumentalist rather than vocalist. In those days of instrumental airplay I was among the most played in the U.S. and Canada, indeed around the world. While on Chart I was voted l967’s Most Promising Instrumentalist, by Record World Magazine, l967’s Most Promising by Cashbox and numerous other awards, both as player and writer. This gave a balance and status to the label that was unique for a small company. It also didn’t hurt that in l966, I had received a N.A.R.A.S. nomination for "Best Instrumental Theme", "Trumpet Pickin", which I had written and recorded as "Green Strings". Al Hirt recorded it and made it famous at the time. My wife Dot’s name was used as the writer, D.J. Edwards, for reasons to complex to explain here.

That’s very impressive! Did any of the other artists receive any awards such as those? I think Lynn Anderson was voted "Most Promising Female Vocalist of 1967" by Cash Box.

I think only Lynn Anderson and I received the major awards while on Chart. However, its possible Jim Nesbitt received some too. Naturally Lynn received many and actively pursued her career while I resisted the pressure to travel and develop as an artist, preferring instead to concentrate on my studio work which I felt was very important, not only for the steel guitar, but as a historical landscape on which to leave my musical ideas. I never had cause to regret that decision. With one record you reach more people than a life-time of traveling and playing one-niters and it’s….forever there to hear. Money was never my prerogative, the music was.

In addition to you, there were a lot of good musicians who played on the records.

True. We always hired some of the top studio players. Joe Zinkan or Jr. Huskey was on bass, Hargus "Pig" Robbins on piano, Buddy Harmon or Willie Ackerman, drums, Pete Wade, Billy Sanford, Ray Edenton, Jimmy Capps, or Fred Carter, Jr. (Deana’s dad) on electric and/or rhythm guitar. But the guitarist of choice for Slim and me was – until his retirement in l969 to found "Barefoot Jerry" and his own recording studio – Wayne Moss. We were a great team!

Do you have any thoughts about Slim or Cliff you would like to share?

I’ve covered many of them. As I told you, Slim was the first guy to give me a chance to be a musician on records. But he went beyond that. Not only did he hire me as a musician, he let me be a leader on those sessions. That was a coveted position, not the least being, leader was paid….double scale! Then too, as leader I had far more control over how the records would sound. It was simply the best of both worlds for me. Slim was probably viewing it as a business decision but I saw it as a larger stage to play on. I received a lot of work from other labels because of the unique steel I was playing on Chart. In that era originality was the most desirable element, not clones and sound-a-likes. So sure, I’ll always appreciate Slim Williamson’s faith and trust in my abilities. He could have hired anyone he wanted.

What about Cliff?

Cliff came along later. Like his dad he is a nice, even-tempered and thoughtful person. He took a more active role in producing the records than Slim. He wanted to be the producer in name and reality, particularly with his wife at the time (Connie Eaton). I had no problem with this. I was going to play my best under any circumstance. 

How did you get to record 3 albums for the label?

I had already recorded 3 instrumental albums for Little Darlin’Records and one on Time Records, "The Big Steel Guitar", my first album. So with these 4 albums already under my belt and getting tremendous airplay, it was both a practical and expedient decision of Slim’s to want to sign me. He asked me a number of times, saying "You know Lloyd, you really should be on Chart records, you’re a part of Chart as much as anyone, more than most." Then, after my 3rd Little Darlin’ album, "Green Country" I suggested to Aubrey Mayhew that there was nothing more I could do there and he graciously released me from my contract. I immediately signed with Chart and started a new phase of my career, the instrumentals now becoming softer, less edgier, though perhaps not quite as original as the earlier Little Darlin’ tracks. But it was a good move for Slim and me. Plus I still remained leader on the Little Darlin’ sessions.

Did you come up with any new innovations while playing on Chart?

Of Course. The very first record we cut with Lynn Anderson was rather interesting, "Ride, Ride, Ride". The intro was my idea, totally. Liz Anderson, who wrote the song, was not happy with the intro, telling me it would ruin the tune. I pointed out that the song was a comedy or parody, not a serious love song. The theme of a gal getting mad at her boy friend and telling him to get on his horse and ride away gave me a humorous musical image of a race track and a horse. I convinced Liz to let us try it that just one cut and if she was still adamantly opposed we would change it. Slim didn’t get involved, leaving it for the two of us to resolve. After we cut it, with still some reluctance, Liz said O.K. That sound on the intro along with my steel made that a hit record. It got all the disc jockey’s attention immediately. Lynn was on her way to stardom. There were many other unique things I came up with on her records, too. Listen to "Promises, Promises" and "Rocky Top" among others. Then there was the solo I played on Anthony Armstrong Jones’ version of "Proud Mary", where I changed keys in the middle of the solo. Nobody had done that, and it worked.

I agree about "Ride, Ride, Ride". But did you know the original intro didn’t get carried on through the re-issues of the song?

No I didn’t know that. How was it changed?

They took the horse clops and stuff like that out.

Very interesting. There’s a simple explanation however. At some point in Lynn’s career I introduced her to Glen Sutton – writer and producer at Epic and C.B.S records – and they were later married. He then produced her Chart records and later we re-cut "Ride, Ride, Ride" in a more modern, hipper fashion. But it was never again a hit and I still think our primitive and corny version, which inarguably launched her career, is far more inventive and fun to listen to.

You said that you had purchased all 3 of your albums back from Chart?

Yes. Slim contacted everybody who had been on the label offering to sell them their masters, which he again owned after buying the label back from, I believe, Audio Fidelity.

That was the name Slim told me.

His thinking was that he would never again re-activate Chart Records so why not offer them to the artists who recorded them. For me, it wasn’t a bad deal. I paid him $l800.00 for my three albums, and the same day leased them to GRT records head Dick Heard for more than that. They were never released and GRT went bankrupt, but they also paid for me to re-mix the albums. These re-mixes never sounded as good as the originals and I still regret that. But I have made a considerable amount of money from those 3 albums since I bought them.

Do you own any more of your albums?

Indeed. I own 9 of the l5 instrumental albums I recorded. The ones I don’t have are 2 on Monument/CBS Records, "Shades of Steel" and "Steel Rides". Sony owns those and when I offered to buy them back they refused to discuss the matter. Also, I couldn’t get back the first one I recorded on Time Records. I don’t even know who owns it. The 3 on Little Darlin’ Aubrey Mayhew also refused to sell, so……

Would you object to putting some of your songs online for people to listen to?

Oh no, not at all! I think that would be wonderful. It would lend an aura of realism and timeliness as to what Chart records was and meant in the l960’s and early ‘70’s. If you wish to do that, you indeed have my permission to add any of them to this Web site.

What I had in mind was when you are looking at the albums online and reading the track list, you could click on a title and listen to the song.

That’s a good idea. And you could integrate that concept with other artists, also. As I was looking at the site it seemed incomplete and will be until you’ve interviewed Slim and Cliff Williamson. Plus it needs to be more easily accessible so people can find it.

I think I have remedied that. I registered www.chartrecords.net/ and registered it with some of the major search engines.

Well, that’s splendid. I know you’ll get a lot more hits on your web site once folks can find it. I don’t know of anyone else who has attempted to preserve such an important part of our musical heritage and past pertaining to one of the smaller labels. Although, there were many secondary labels in the l960’s and l970’s, the golden era of country music, probably none holds the significance to the degree Chart Records and Little Darlin’ do. I hope someone decides to construct a Little Darlin’ website now.

One last question. Do you have any memorabilia that you wouldn’t mind sharing that we could put on the website?

Well, I have a treasure trove of memorabilia of my recording career cataloged year by year. Unfortunately I don’t have a lot of photos of the Chart years, but I may have some other things to share. I’ll get back with you on that.

I surely appreciate that. Well, I want to wish you good luck on your upcoming project and thank you for helping with mine.

Thank you so much, Martin. I am looking forward to getting back into the sessions. It is an exciting moment for me and I’ll soon know if the producers are serious about wanting me to record again. I’ve still got lots of new, commercial ideas people haven’t heard which I’d like to share.

I’m looking forward to hearing some of it! I’m sure everything will turn out great. Take care and have a good evening.

You too, Martin. Good evening.

Good bye.